One of the best parts of my job is recording podcast episodes every few weeks with my brilliant colleague and friend Rose Mutiso.

In many ways, Rose and I are very different. She grew up in Nairobi, Kenya. I grew up in suburban Philadelphia. She’s a materials science engineer. I’m a public policy nerd who studied a confusing (but ultimately very relevant!) mash-up of history, politics, environmental policy, and francophone literature.

But we both started working in the U.S. government at the same time—and built our early careers around U.S. efforts to end global energy poverty. We both believe deeply in the value of public service, the crucial importance of international cooperation, and the decency, courage, and creativity of American and local USAID staff around the world. We’ve also both experienced firsthand the dysfunction inside U.S. foreign policy and bureaucracy—and the real long-term damage that foreign aid can do in the countries it aims to help.

Normally, we interview a guest. But this time, we sat down without notes, a script, or much of a plan. We just talked to each other—as coworkers and friends—about what’s been going on.

It’s a little messy. It’s a little emotional. We’re figuring this out as we go along, just like everyone else.

Hope you take a listen. We’d love to know what you think.

Listen Here: High Energy Planet - Ep. 31 - Katie and Rose on the Future of Foreign Aid